Dual-Boot with 32- or 64-bit Ubuntu?

[LinuxFetus]

Hello, I'm new to the Linux world (hence my name; 'Fetus' -> I have never installed Linux before).

I know some C and Java (and some other languages) and am a recently-declared junior computer science major, so I have no qualms with switching over from Windows.

That being said, I want to do some audio production (which is why I'm considering AV Linux), but I'd also like to learn about the other, non-multimedia production aspects of Linux, but don't want to bog down my DAW with extra software, so I'd like to dual-boot with another distro.  I hear that Ubuntu is a nice one to start out with, so I think I'll go with that.

My question is, should I install the 32-bit or the 64-bit version?  From reading, I can gather that I should format my Ubuntu partition as ext3 for compatibility purposes, but since AV Linux is 32-bit with PAE (yes?), I was wondering if there Ubuntu needed to be 32-bit, as well (from a quick Google search, it appears that the 32-bit Ubuntu kernel can be later configured to support PAE).

Oh, and if it's relevant, here are my system specs atm:
- Intel Core2 Duo T7600 @ 2.33 GHz
- 1 x 2 GB DDR2 RAM @ 667 MHz (if my new HDD that's currently in the mail is accepted by my motherboard, I will go ahead and get another 2 GB stick of RAM)
- 100 GB 7200 RPM Seagate HDD (500 GB Seagate 7200 RPM is in the mail)
- ATI Mobility FireGL 256 MB
- SoundMAX HD Audio
- external M-Audio FastTrack USB

[trulan]

I'd go with 64 bit Ubuntu - or maybe I should say I went with 64 bit Ubuntu. 
The only compatibility issue with dual-booting Ubuntu and AVLinux, as you already know, is related to ext4 file systems, and it only causes a problem if you install Ubuntu first, then install AVLinux and install its grub bootloader to the MBR.  Doing this will render your Ubuntu un-bootable, requiring you to reinstall Ubuntu's grub from a live CD.  If you install AVLinux's grub to its own partition, rather than to the MBR, you can run Ubuntu on an ext4 partition, AVLInux on an ext3 partition, and dual boot with no problems (The AVLinux installer asks very clearly where it should install Grub, so it's not hard to get it right if you know what to expect).  However, the benefits of ext4 are debatable, and it just keeps everything simpler to use all ext3 partitions.

Looks like your system should do pretty well for you - and if it rejects that new HDD, you could send it this way - my 160Gb is starting to feel a little cramped.

As far as PAE, yes, you can re-compile Ubuntu's kernel and enable it.  If you're serious about learning the ins and outs of Linux, and you're the computer science major type, you'll probably end up compiling your own kernels at some point anyway (I have no degrees at all and have been rolling my own kernels for a few months now.)  So you'll have plenty of chances to play around with that if you stick at it.

Good luck!

[LinuxFetus]

Thank you for the prompt reply!

HP said that my laptop will only support up to 120 GB for a 5400 RPM HDD or 100 GB for a 7200 RPM HDD (which doesn't make any sense to me - why would the supported capacity vary with the RPM speed?).  The guy clearly wasn't a native English speaker and the document that he sent me which allegedly listed all compatible hardware for my laptop, including HDD's, seemed more like an exhaustive list of manufacturer hardware configurations rather than compatible hardware.  I guess it could be the motherboard 128 GiB/137 GB barrier, but being a psuedo high-end machine purchased in 2007, I'm hoping Tech Support at HP was just wrong, otherwise I'll need a new computer to contain the GB's of samples I want to purchase from Native Instruments and Vir2 Instruments...

Well I guess what I was wondering with the 32/64 bit Ubuntu was two things:  
1) With Ubuntu 64-bit/ext4 and AV Linux can I access files on all ext3/4 partitions from each distro?
2) Would I have to mess with some BIOS settings or something to switch between 32-bit and 64-bit OS's rather than just simply selecting one at Startup?

With both considerations in mind, which combination of ext3/4 32-/64-bit Ubuntu should I install?

[trulan]

I think you're right - he was giving you the list of available options had you been buying the computer.... 
As far as your questions:

1. Yes.  You will be able to access your Ubuntu file system from AVLinux, and AVLinux from Ubuntu.  AVLinux can read an ext4 file system.  The only part of AVLinux that does not support ext4 is the version of Grub Bootloader it uses.  So if you have Ubuntu (or any other OS) installed on an ext4 partition, and you install AVLinux's bootloader to the MBR, any OS's on ext4 file systems will not be available in your boot menu, which will make them impossible to boot.  (People tend to get upset when this happens - hence the warnings to stick with ext3 files systems.)  So if you do decide to use Ubuntu on ext4, you must make sure that Ubuntu is controlling the bootloader, not AVLinux.  (Ubuntu uses a newer version of Grub, which can read ext4 as well as ext3 and everything else.)  Ubuntu will install itself to an ext4 partition by default but it's quite easy to install it to an ext3 partition instead.

2. No.  No bios settings involved.  If you have a 64 bit processor (and you do), you can boot 32 bit and 64 bit OS's.

Which combination should you install?  I don't think it matters a whole lot.  I currently have 64 bit Ubuntu, 32 bit AVLinux, and three ext3 partitions - one for Ubuntu, one for AVLinux, and one for data.  I used to have 32 bit Ubuntu on an ext4 partition (that machine only had a 32 bit processor) and that worked too.  I have never seen any performance difference between 32 bit and 64 bit, or between ext3 and ext4.  There are still a few programs around that do not work on a 64 bit OS.  64 bit and ext4 are newer, but newer isn't always better.

[LinuxFetus]

1) Do you have a swap partition as well?  If not, why?

2) Should Ubuntu and AV Linux have their own swap space partitions?  (I believe I read somewhere that hibernation uses swap space, so if I were to hibernate one and use the other, I think it would make sense to have two separate swap space partitions?)  

3) Should my swap space partition(s) be 4 GB if I'm using 4 GB of RAM?  Would that number be affected by using 32-bit w/ PAE or 64 bit version of Ubuntu?

4) Does your File partition have programs, too?  Or just things like music, office documents, images, movies, etc.?  Along these lines, is the 15 GB recommend partition for AV Linux just for OS files, or does it store applications, plugins, etc. as well?

5) Should I have an OS, Swap Space and Files partition for each distro or can I get away with a single Files partition for both (and just install the programs for each in two different directories, if programs are stored in the Files partition)?

6) Can Ubuntu's grub also load NTFS partitions, namely a version of Windows?  (Some of my classes may occasionally require some obscure program that isn't supported by Wine or anything and thus I'd probably want a small partition for that, as well.)

7) If you don't notice any performance benefits of 64 vs. 32 Ubuntu and if some programs do not work on 64 Ubuntu, then why did you install it/do you still have it?

I've never used disk partitions before, and while I roughly know what they are, I'm not sure of: a) when to use them or b) what sizes to allocate to each.

Thank you!

[GMaq]

Hi LinuxFetus...

You are in good hands here with trulan, but I might offer a couple of opinions...There is nothing wrong with Ubuntu, it's a great OS, but I question the need to run 2 Desktops to cover the bases, AV Linux 4 which will be released in the next day or so is a full-featured OS that specializes in Multimedia, all the other stuff including a light Office suite are all there so why do you figure you need 2 Linux's (Linii?) to replace 1 Windows. If you wish to run 10 OS's for comparison's sake it's no business of mine, I'm just saying you don't really need Ubuntu to shore up the 'deficiencies' of AV Linux. Secondly 64bit OS's look phenomenal on a technical whitepaper but under your fingertips on a Linux Desktop all those technical advantages are practically invisible and when you factor in the PAE Kernel which AV Linux is giving you by default then the so-called advantages diminish even further. Video Encoding, Number of Audio Tracks a DAW will run etc. and other intensive applications will be virtually no faster on a 64bit OS, The biggest noticeable improvements still hinge on CPU Speed x Number of Cores and amount of RAM available to the system.

To address a couple of the other questions...you will need only one Linux Swap for both OS's. AV Linux's partition should be primarily for the OS files (including small program files like plugins). Both Ubuntu and AV Linux will seamlessly handle NTFS Partitions. You really just need one large common (suggest ext3) partition for both OS's to use, in fact Windows can also use it if you use an optional extfs driver, there is one available but I digress.

Anyway...some things to consider - Linux'OldFartus'

[LinuxFetus]

I did not mean to insinuate that AV Linux had any 'deficiencies.'  Rather, I figured that AV Linux had a focused purpose: multimedia (like GIMP being a bitmap editor, not a vector one and therefore not supported advanced graphical text editing, as I found out yesterday).  As such, I thought that support for other software non-essential to multimedia production in AV Linux could maybe: a) pose compatibility conflicts with other software (maybe that's not really an issue with open-source software?); or b) slow down the system boot time and/or performance due to its bloated-ness (as I believe you mentioned on another forum topic about why you started to include Opera instead of IceWeasel).

'Linuxes or Linuces' is the plural form, according to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Linux  

In order for Windows to be on an ext3 partition, I assume that I would have to slipstream a driver to do such in a boot CD?  Would using an ext3 file system diminish Windows' performance?

Given what you have said about 64-bit OS's, could their full-scale implementation have been postponed had Windows just supported PAE until 64 GB of RAM/2 TB HDD's been approached?  I believe Windows intentionally decreased memory limits in its OS's to encourage upgrades:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778(VS.85).aspx

Various 32-bit and 64-bit versions of the same OS's with different editions (i.e. Basic, Home, Professional, etc.) have different limitations.

[trulan]

I have one 3Gb swap partition, shared by both OS's - sorry I didn't mention that.  I do not use hibernate, I don't know how it works.

My personal reasons for using Ubuntu alongside AVLinux is pretty simple:  I'm a chronic tinkerer and I invariably break things occasionally.  So for me, Ubuntu is for tinkering and testing, and AVLinux is for production - I try to keep the tinkering to a minimum.  It's an effort to balance the desire to learn with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

I also run my virtual machines and Open Office over in Ubuntu, to keep the virtualization modules and all the Java stuff out of AVlinux - it feels cleaner to me to do it that way.  But it would work just fine to do it all in AVLinux.  Ubuntu is definitely heavier (more bloated) than AVLinux, so if something feels 'bloaty' I put it over there.

My data partition holds audio project files, samples, virtual machine disks, etc.  Programs are on the root partition of their respective OS - so if you plan to do everything with AVLinux and want to install a lot of programs, 15Gb will be too small.  I have 40Gb for Ubuntu and 15Gb for AVLinux and it works well.

Why 64 bit?  Good question - it probably has more to do with making impressions and what other people think, to tell you the truth.  And that's a lousy reason to do anything...  But there's really only one program I use that is 32 bit only, and it works far better in a windows VM than under any kind of Linux.

WHAT?? Microsoft restrict functionality to encourage users to buy expensive upgrades?? NEVER!!

[LinuxFetus]

Trulan, do you have 3 GB  because your RAM is 3 GB?  With 4 GB of RAM, how much swap space is needed?

As far as I understand, hibernation basically dumps the RAM on the HDD and power is shut off (whereas standby uses a trickle of power).  Upon booting, RAM is loaded, decreasing boot time and allowing for programs and whatnot to remain open.  Now, this may not be needed in Linux as it may boot quickly, but my Windows computer boots 3 - 4 times as quickly this way.

What would be easier - to install Windows or Linux first?  I'm sure I can Google guides to each, but a quick Google search didn't tell me which one was easier.

Also, just out of curiosity (and, judging from other posts on the forums this number may not be reliable), how long will it be before AV Linux 4 comes out?

[GMaq]

Hi,

I have never used hibernation with Linux either, a couple of years ago it was broken within the Linux kernel for a long time and I suspect many people like myself and trulan simply just forgot about using it altogether, regardless AV Linux boots quickly and most recent 'Linuces' boot more quickly than they used to.

About bloat...it is an issue I struggle with when I prepare AV Linux for other people to use, in truth I personally only use about 3 Audio applications and a couple of Video applications if I made AV just for myself those menu's would be a lot smaller! That being said AV Linux has very few daemons (background processes) running when it boots up so Open Office, Java, and other stuff that is now included actually only consumes some hard drive space when it is not being used, it isn't sapping resources with hidden background processes. I agree though with the perception of programs being present that you don't use creating a 'bloat-y' impression.

Regarding AV Linux 4, you are absolutely correct that my original timetable has been thrown out the window by numerous last minute difficulties, The ISO is ready and I'm working on a release announcement and finishing the user manuals, Unfortunately I do this in my spare time which is in short supply these days and with a family, full time job, part-time musician job and a lot of unforeseen difficulties with both AV Linux 4.0 and the forum in the last week I'm spread a little thin. I won't swear on a stack of Bibles but I should have a release announcement out this weekend (June 12-13). Ubuntu has a team of paid developers pounding Debian Sid into a usable live product...AV Linux has me...for whatever that is worth!

[trulan]

Boot time is well under 30 seconds on both AVLinux and Ubuntu.  That's probably why I never bothered with hibernation.

I would definitely install Windows first, if you need a physical installation of Windows on your machine.  The Windows installer seems to have been written by people who are unaware of the existence of other OS's.  It is easy to install Linux without touching Windows, it is difficult to install Windows without destroying everything else on your hard drive.

And I have 3 Gb of swap space because I read somewhere that that is a good number.  The old formula was to make your swap partition twice as large as your ram, however with memory in the gigabyte range these days, the need for a swap partition is decreasing.  So I thought 3 Gb for my 2 Gb ram was a safe amount.  Actually, I think I ran with no swap at all for several weeks and never even noticed.  (I had messed up my partitioning table - trying to install Windows, hence my comments above - and a few weeks later I noticed that the swap partition wasn't even being mounted).  So I think 4Gb swap and 4Gb ram sounds like an excellent combination.